Hi Robert,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for the clarification. I definitely want to use the parts bin approach. It is exactly what we are looking for.</div><div><br></div><div>Do you think the javascript <> Smalltalk translator is something that a student at HPI would be interested in doing as a project? I would be happy to support the work.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Andy<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 3:23 AM, Robert Krahn <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:robert.krahn@gmail.com" target="_blank">robert.krahn@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I'm not very familiar with Amber but what I understand from the documentation is that it tries to be very close to Pharo, providing most of Pharo's API as well as a class browser that uses a node server for compilation / saving Smalltalk / JS code.<div>
<br></div><div>For developing applications in Lively we adopted a more object-centric approach that has the PartsBin as its central point [1] and does not rely on writing code in classes. Developing an application basically means to combine existing objects, change their look and behavior. This is done interactively using different tools and combines visual interaction with writing code. See [2] for an example.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Technically there is no problem to load Amber Smalltalk in Lively and write Amber code that manipulates Lively worlds / objects. A proper integration, however, requires more work. Tools like the ObjectEditor and System Code browser need to support the Smalltalk syntax in order to allow using them with the usual process. Of course, you can just develop Smalltalk code interactively in a workspaces [3] but this won't give you the real "Lively experience".</div>
<div><br></div><div>In the end it really depends on what you want to do. If you want to write a conventional web app in Smalltalk you are probably better off using just Amber. If you want to use Lively's GUI as well as the PartsBin concept with Smalltalk then a proper integration makes sense (tool support, debugging support, etc) and Amber might not be the best choice as Lively comes with its own API and object system. A possible step brought up by Dan is to create some kind of automatic Smalltalk view that would convert JS code into Smalltalk when you browse it in the ObjectEditor, for example. At this point we do not plan this kind of integration. However, if you want to start this kind of project, you can be sure that we do very welcome it and I would try to personally support it.</div>
<div><br></div><div>[1] <a href="http://hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/publications/media/LinckeKrahnIngallsRoederHirschfeld_2012_TheLivelyPartsBinACloudBasedRepositoryForCollaborativeDevelopmentOfActiveWebContent_IEEE.pdf" target="_blank">http://hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/publications/media/LinckeKrahnIngallsRoederHirschfeld_2012_TheLivelyPartsBinACloudBasedRepositoryForCollaborativeDevelopmentOfActiveWebContent_IEEE.pdf</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>[2] <a href="http://lively-kernel.org/other/how-to-create-a-comment-recorder.mov" target="_blank">http://lively-kernel.org/other/how-to-create-a-comment-recorder.mov</a><br><br>[3] <a href="http://lively-kernel.org/repository/webwerkstatt/users/robertkrahn/smalltalk-bookmarklets.xhtml" target="_blank">http://lively-kernel.org/repository/webwerkstatt/users/robertkrahn/smalltalk-bookmarklets.xhtml</a></div>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">
<div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Andy Burnett <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:andy.burnett@knowinnovation.com" target="_blank">andy.burnett@knowinnovation.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Hi Lorenzo,</div><div>It's great to know that I am not alone :-)</div><div><br></div><div>
Let's find out, from Robert, how far we can get with the current ST implementation, and the possibility of incorporating Amber. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><span><font color="#888888"><div>Andy<br><br><br></div></font></span><div><div><div><br>On 25 Jul 2012, at 09:26, Lorenzo Schiavina <<a href="mailto:lorenzo@edor.it" target="_blank">lorenzo@edor.it</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi Andy,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I am in the same
situation as you: I am very proficient in ST so, please keep me informed about
your projects and consider me as an other resource for any kind of projects.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Lorenzo</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">Da:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">
<a href="mailto:lively-kernel-bounces@hpi.uni-potsdam.de" target="_blank">lively-kernel-bounces@hpi.uni-potsdam.de</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:lively-kernel-bounces@hpi.uni-potsdam.de" target="_blank">lively-kernel-bounces@hpi.uni-potsdam.de</a>] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Per conto di </span></b>Andy Burnett<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Inviato:</span></b> mercoledì 25 luglio 2012
15.13<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">A:</span></b> Robert Krahn<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> lively-kernel<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Oggetto:</span></b> Re: [lively-kernel] Can
we write LK code in Smalltalk?</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Wow! Robert that is absolutely fantastic.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I don't have anything against javascript, but being able to program in
Smalltalk makes me so happy :-)</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">OK, a couple of questions:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Is ir feasible for me to develop using Smalltalk,
i.e. can I save my code? If so, do I save the smalltalk, or the generated
javascript</span></font></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Just in very broad terms, would it be possible to
include Amber, or is it way too difficult?</span></font></li>
</ol>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Cheers</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Andy</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:32 AM, Robert Krahn <<a href="mailto:robert.krahn@gmail.com" target="_blank">robert.krahn@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">We do not use it for main
development. I implemented a very simple ST compiler in 2009. It's by far not
so advanced as Amber. You can use it by loading the module
lively.SmalltalkParser (</span></font><font size="1" face="Courier New"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";background:#f3f3f3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;outline:none">module(</span><font color="teal"><span style="color:teal"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;outline:none">'lively.SmalltalkParser'</span></span></font><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;outline:none">).load();</span></span></font>). See
this demo world for more info: <a href="http://lively-kernel.org/repository/webwerkstatt/users/robertkrahn/smalltalk-fun.xhtml" target="_blank">http://lively-kernel.org/repository/webwerkstatt/users/robertkrahn/smalltalk-fun.xhtml</a></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Andy Burnett <<a href="mailto:andy.burnett@knowinnovation.com" target="_blank">andy.burnett@knowinnovation.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Hello,</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">As I was digging around the code - trying to find SortedCollection - I
noticed references to a Smalltalk parser. Does this work? If so, how do I
invoke it? </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Cheers</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="#888888" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#888888">Andy</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
lively-kernel mailing list<br>
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<a href="http://lists.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/listinfo/lively-kernel" target="_blank">http://lists.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/listinfo/lively-kernel</a></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></font></p>
</div>
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</div></blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>